All Things MTM with Peter Kuhlang

We sit down with Peter Kuhlang, CEO of the MTM Association, to unpack MTM as a process language that turns work description into reliable time standards. We also test the hype around AI by looking at how video and motion data can speed up analysis without losing credibility.

• Peter’s path from industrial engineering to leading MTM globally 
• What MTM is and why predetermined motion time systems matter 
• How the MTM Association maintains methods, rights, and training standards 
• Picking the right MTM method based on repetitiveness and detail needed 
• The top benefits we see in practice: transparency, standardisation, cost planning 
• Where AI helps and where human judgement still has to step in 
• How MTM Motion validates AI-identified motions into a correct MTM analysis 

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Welcome to the Productivity Podcast. Today I am delighted to be joined by a special guest and a good friend Peter Kulin, the CEO of the MTM Association. Hi, Peter. It's a pleasure to be here. Good. Thank you for joining us. And for the listeners, that's that's not a UK accent. So where are you based today when we're at the time we're recording?

SPEAKER_01 0:28

I'm born and I was born and raised in Austria, but uh now I'm living in Hamburg in Germany.

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Lovely, lovely, lovely part of the world. So Peter, before we get into all things MTM, do you want to just give us a

Peter’s Background In Industrial Engineering

SPEAKER_00 0:41

brief intro about yourself and your role there?

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Yes, I'll do. As you said, my name is Peter Kulen. I'm Austrian, but I'm leading MTM globally, so I'm headquarters here is in Germany in Hamburg. I'm in the I'm in sorry, I'm an industrial engineer from the Vienna University of Technology, and I was always working with MTM in the field of designing work systems, work measurement, value stream mapping, all that stuff was topics that I did for many years, and then I got the chance to work for the MTM Association because that's what I wanted to do. And uh since 2021, I'm responsible for MTEM On the MTEM organization in Germany on the one side, which is the MTEM Association, which is a non-profit organization, but also the MTM Solutions, which is the commercial part. But we are also leading together with you in the in the M10 network, we are working to disseminate MTEM globally. That's about me, and um I love what I do. It's my passion to work for MTM and uh spread out the methodology.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Good. So uh let's get into the detail then. We've done a few previous podcasts with some of the team from the UK MTM Association

What MTM Means And Why It Exists

SPEAKER_00 1:55

about the various bits. But do you want to give us kind of your view of the MTM Association? What it what it is, probably start with what MTM means, maybe for those that haven't heard of it before.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Yeah, MTEM is the abbreviation for Mesoops time measurement. It's the most well-known predetermined motion time system. It was developed in the 1948 and published there as well. And at the end, uh it's it's uh the the success from MTEM comes mainly from the structure that we were able to set up over 80 years now globally. So we have partners globally, is being the contact person or being the contact organization for the companies for for our customers in several regions, countries of the world, and uh that is one of the key the key factors. And uh, we are following when we're trying to um continue with this uh successful structure. The network now is called the Monetary Network, and the network is officially led by the MTEM Association. The MTEM Association is uh let's say formally holding the rights of the of the MTEM systems, also the trademarks. And uh since we are a non-profit organization, our main task is to develop the methodology further, to train the methodology, and to uh sustain the network and be the contact organization for our for interested customers around the world. Just one thing about the M10 methodology: the it's it's a kind of language, a process language. You are describing operations, processes, and you get automatically time is assigned to these time elements, to these process elements, and by describing a process or by simulating a process, you are setting labor standards. So you get the time more or less an outcome and a free outcome. But the target is to understand the work, to see the work, to understand the work system, to improve the work system, and to get a fundamental assessment base for that. That is what the MTEM Association is doing. And the big the thing that in the group that we the the big advantage for our customer is that you can get all the things to understand and to apply, and then you can get it from one hand. We are to we all together in the one hand we do the training, we develop a software where you can uh save or work with these uh MTM applications. We do consulting work as the colleagues in Recync do. We do research, and uh we are a contact person, a single source uh contact person globally.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

Perfect. So I think yeah, a couple of bits to take away from that. So you're you're the mothership, so

The MTM Network And Common Standards

SPEAKER_00 4:52

you uphold the the MTM standards, make sure we're all delivering the training in the right manner to the right standard, which is which is good, and then gives us that global partnership of of all the other night organizations across the world. And and I I have to say it amazes me actually how well all the the partners work together. It's it's very much a supported network rather than a competitive network, which is which is amazing to see.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Which is the which is the fundamental idea because we are we are it's when it comes to disseminating it and to be there for the customers, it's not competitive, it's to be on the same standards, regarding training material, to be on the same training structure, to be uh more or less on the same principles behind uh and them, how we use it, how you train it, how you can apply it, how you can really improve work systems. And that that is that's why we are not competitive. For example, if it comes to consulting or if it comes to sell software, or to the that's clear, then we will be competitors. But the methodology behind that is the big advantage, is uh is our common understanding.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

Now the there's a number of methodologies within MTM. Some people will understand that because they they've been through it, but without going into

Choosing The Right MTM Method

SPEAKER_00 6:08

all the detail, because that's available on the UK MTM website, on the MTMDE website, on the Rethink website. Do you want to give us a kind of whistle stop, a quick tour of the building blocks that people might choose to develop further in their MTM training?

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Of course, I can do the the main criteria to select the right building block system, what we call it, is the the level of organization. We call it organizational level or method uh method level, and it describes how well organized or how repetitive a work system is, or how how how the repetitiveness is. So, for example, if you have a mass production system, then you will use a more precise MTEM system, for example, MTM1 or MTM HWD, which is a connection of MTEM1 mainly with ergonomic assessment, or if you have a work system where you are building more or less one-of-a-kind products, like a shipyard, for example, you would use MTM MAK, which is a single methodology for uh single jobs that you are analyzing. But the most well-known system globally is the is MTEM UIS, which is called which is the abbreviation for universal analyzing system. It's a typical serial production systems system that is that was developed in the 19th, at the beginning, the end of the 1970s, and is the common system in automotive industry, in white good industry, in logistics. And that is these are the main systems. And since let's say 15 years, also the ergonomic topic is coming pretty much into our methodologies, and we are doing the ergonomic assessment rule, which is also build on programming in the typical ergonomic system to assess work is yeah, less anonymic assessment worksheet.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

So that's different different methodologies for for the the right processes that you're observing and the right level of detail you want to get to, then.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Yeah, and uh that's also a typical job of our organization is if we get in kind in contact with people who are interested in work measurement label, setting labor standards, the first thing is we have to determine which system we are going to use for the application in the companies. Perfect.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

And in terms of benefits, so obviously the one thing we've not talked about today is

Three Core Benefits Of MTM

SPEAKER_00 8:37

timing. So MTM is, as you said, predetermined time. So there's no stopwatches involved, there's no going out and measuring process, it's breaking down those components into the the building blocks that have got the time assigned. So when people talk to you about the benefits, what are the kind of top three things where you see MTM adding the most value?

SPEAKER_01 9:00

The top thing definitely is that you that you are able to simulate the process. That sounds not very fancy, but it's a matter of fact, you don't have to see a work system before you or in order to apply an term analysis. You just need to understand the influencing factors, for example, the weights, the distances in the that you have to cover, and then you can describe, you can simulate a process. So you create transparency. Yeah, that's the that's thing that not everybody wants, but from a productivity point of view, it's it's it's fundamental. So that is the first thing. The second thing is standardization in in my eyes. So you can you can uh implement a very clear and well-structured improvement uh continuous improvement system based on our standards. So you are describing labor, and you are all these things are based on our standard performance, and uh so you get an international benchmark for human labor. And the third thing is based on these two things: transparency and standardization, is it's it's a very solid investment or uh increase of uh cost planning, cost reduction, identifying improvement potentials, for example, by assessing the valuating and non-valuating elements in the process. So these are the main three topics that I would like to say that or think that these are the benefits from them. And as you already mentioned, you you do not have to use any stopwatch to determine the time. You can use these building block systems, you do not have to guess, you get specific and clear figures, and that's uh that's uh something that that I really like, and uh I'm using it for my whole uh business life.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Perfect. And it's probably a miss we should talk about AI. Everybody else is,

AI For Motion Data With Validity Checks

SPEAKER_00 10:58

so why shouldn't we? So where are you as the uh described who's the mothership before? So what where are you in in Germany and the the central team and and your colleagues and where their heads are with AI and what potential benefits it'll bring bring to the application of MTM?

SPEAKER_01 11:15

I will I will do that quickly. Let me let me start quickly with some thoughts if we talk about digital work design in general. The problem or the challenge is there. It's if you if you use digital tools like uh simulation tools or mocap tools or VR systems or tools like yeah, tools like this, that there is challenges, and the main thing is that you cannot experience, you do not feel the process really. So using a stopwatch or to determine time in that in that early stage of a of a work system is difficult because you don't know how, or often you don't know how heavy the parts are, how long the motion, the movements are. You you do not have the routine in order to perform the work. You you feel watched when you are wearing, for example, VR glasses. So all these things are in general a challenge for digital work design. And now AI comes into the game. And uh the the the idea of uploading, for example, a work description or or a bomb or something to a large language model or a Gen AI model, and then hoping to get out and or to to receive an MTM analysis. All of that is possible, and we are working with that as well. As you said, some of we are the mothership, but also from a methodological point of view, we have to take care of the credibility of the system. So all these things that are described are possible, but there is an important step from our side. We want to use these technologies to identify to interpret whatever motion data, wherever you get them from, even with AI. You can upload the video and then you get the motion. But before you really come up with an MTEM analysis, you you must check the credibility of the data that were identified by all these digital tools. And then these interface, then we have developed an interface which is called MTEM Motion, and this interface is available for free, it's just transferring the identified AI identified or simulation-identified data into a valid MTEM analysis. And with valid, I mean this algorithm, MTEM Motion algorithm, is considering and obeying the MTEM rules. So an MTEM analysis must be correct because then the time is correct. And this is what we do in AI. We we we upload, for example, a video, we interpret the video with these LLMs, large language models, we get out some information that was identified by artificial intelligence, but then before we turn it into an into an MTM analysis, we we are using our algorithm to make it concise, consistent, and valid. And that's the approach that I would really introduce into the global MTM application into all for all our one-and-them partners, and uh that's the big the big benefit because we don't we want to avoid discussions about run times, run processes. That's our approach. But it's working and it's working putting me.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Perfect. So yeah, I think there's again in my mind that there's lots of advantages as AI develops quickly, clearly every day. But over the next kind of 12 to 18 months, there's going to be some huge opportunities.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

I think I fully agree. It makes us fast, but there is a challenge that we have to also keep in mind. We should use it, we we must understand probably how it works, but we should use our brain when we see the results, and uh um we cannot accept everything that is generated by AI. And that's why we came up with this consolidation approach with an motion, and uh, I think we did a we good we have a good idea, we have a good solution because the application in the field is really people are interested in, especially if we turn videos into time, that works quite well. And then when you see the results, how these how an MTM analysis is generated out of a video that uh where a workplace or a work process is recorded, it's fascinating to see that. It gives you the opportunity to get faster towards to a time, but you know, it's not it's not the the the level of accuracy is not that well or that good at the moment, and therefore we have this interface and it's we are going that way.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Perfect. Well we'll we'll pause there. It's always fascinating to chat, Peter, and find out more about NTM

Where To Learn More And Contact

SPEAKER_00 15:47

and and where it's going and obviously where it came from. If people want to reach out to you, where's the best place for them to find you?

SPEAKER_01 15:55

I think the easiest way is to go to the website of Resync. But if you want to contact us directly, us as a network, I mean it's mtm.org and find us. That's the easiest. It was a pleasure, Samuel and thanks for the invitation.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

No problem. Thanks, Peter. We'll speak soon. Thanks, Sam.