Embrace the insider's perspective on navigating the intricate maze of Workforce Management with Donna Stephenson of Simms and Associates, our esteemed guide through the nuances of effective change management. Donna dissects the tendency to overemphasize tech at the expense of people in WFM rollouts
Arm yourself with actionable strategies for a smooth WFM implementation, as we cut through the clutter of common misconceptions. Donna underscores the imperative of pristine data, crystal-clear objectives, and the early inclusion of key players to align processes and sidestep the trap of moulding new tech to old, ineffective practices. A robust change management strategy emerges as the cornerstone of successful deployment, setting the stage for stakeholder engagement and realistic expectations.
Embrace the insider's perspective on navigating the intricate maze of Workforce Management with Donna Stephenson of Simms and Associates, our esteemed guide through the nuances of effective change management. Donna dissects the tendency to overemphasize tech at the expense of people in WFM rollouts
Arm yourself with actionable strategies for a smooth WFM implementation, as we cut through the clutter of common misconceptions. Donna underscores the imperative of pristine data, crystal-clear objectives, and the early inclusion of key players to align processes and sidestep the trap of moulding new tech to old, ineffective practices. A robust change management strategy emerges as the cornerstone of successful deployment, setting the stage for stakeholder engagement and realistic expectations.
Welcome to the Productivity Podcast. This is the first in a mini-series with our friends at Sims and Associates, and today I'm delighted to be joined by Donna Stevenson, practice Manager for EMEA. Hi Donna. Hi Simon how are you? Yeah, good thanks, good thank you. So we've known each other for a while, in various guises, in various organisations, haven't we? But for those that are listening. Do you want to tell us a bit about your career and how you ended up working at, at sims and associates?
Speaker 2:
yes, of course. So hello everybody.
Speaker 2:
I um started my career at sainsbury's and I stayed at sainsbury's, starting in stores and then working up through delivering many different types of projects across the business, and my final role at Sainsbury's was within labour management where we implemented workforce management across the network.
Speaker 2:
I did 29 years at Sainsbury's, so it was quite a big change to leave. Following on from that, I then did some mini labour projects independently with one of the UK garden centres and on from that, I then did some mini labour projects independently with one of the UK garden centres and then, following on from that, I then went to UKG as an executive relationship manager. It was the one role that I thought was key at UKG alongside many others, but was key for the customer and, when I was at Sainsbury's, was a key role in helping me and the team understand and drive to understand what behaviours we were doing that were delivering against our objectives. And then, following on from that, I moved to BP for about 18 months where I was a retail productivity specialist supporting across EMEA with the rollout of workforce management solutions end to end.
Speaker 1:
I joined Sims Associates in August last year as the practice manager, working with an implementation team across EMEA team across EMEA, excellent, so a varied career, kind of navigating down that workforce, workforce management path, which is the key of the conversation today, isn't it? So we're going to talk about change, not forgetting the change, certainly in your WFM implementations. You've seen it clearly both sides, donna, which is which is great. So you've seen it from client side, you've seen it from vendor side and now you're kind of sims sitting, that agnostic world, don't in terms of just trying to get the the best result for organizations implementing UKG.
Speaker 2:
Yes, absolutely. I think you can implement any workforce management solution, but underpinning that is the change management and the engagement around that. So, first of all, have your clear objectives, but then actually, how do we manage that change? For me, a workforce management solution is an enabler to managing our teams and managing our people, delivering schedules that are fit for purpose, but it's not the total answer. It doesn't remove the need to manage and to be able to engage our store teams. A lot of my history has been within retail, so I'll refer back to a sort of a store store team. I think it doesn't. We still need to engage our managers in what we're trying to deliver and what their role is in managing their people.
Speaker 1:
Alongside the wfm solution as an enabler yeah, and it it seems that um change, end-to-end management is kind of the missing link. So people get really excited, don't they, about buying a solution and, like you say, whether it's the red one, the green one, the blue one, um, there's lots of focus specifically from it, from procurement. You know, have we got the best tech? Have we got the best price? And there'll be operations people in there with their how's this going to work, hat on. But I'd see and I don't know if you still see it that seems to be the big beauty parade and the big excitement bit. Then it quickly just goes into project mode of delivery.
Speaker 1:
I agree and people do. I'm not saying people don't, but people do consider engagement. But it is more about a project plan to deliver an IT solution than a change management program.
Speaker 2:
I've seen that time again and I think you know referred back to my executive relationship manager role, that was one of the key parts, for my role was to talk to customers around how they were engaging and managing those changes with their teams. It's such a waste to implement a solution totally and then not have it operating as you saw it operating, and often the key factor there is the change in engagement piece.
Speaker 1:
No-transcript and why do you think that is? Is it? Do people just get too excited with the tech and treat it just like a tech project rather than a change project yes, absolutely, I think that's.
Speaker 2:
I think that's why I think we implement a technology project. It's seen very much as an it project, um, which is, I mean it's it, at the end of the day, it's owned by, by an it team. But I think we need to remember that who's the customer? And the customer are our colleagues at the end of the day, because we're buying in a solution that's helping us manage them, helping us give them tools to be able to manage their working life, their scheduling, their time card, etc. And I think it's important that we remember who's the end user and to get them to buy in and want to use the tool, you've got to explain why and what the benefits are to them. Almost sell it to them, simon, I think, would you agree?
Speaker 1:
Yeah, no, absolutely. I liken it to EPOS. So buy an EPOS solution for those who don't know EPOS, so a till solution, so the buttons you press on the till. Buy a WFM solution. They're both tech solutions so both will probably be cured in a similar way, thought about in terms of rollout, in a similar way.
Speaker 1:
I think the big difference here is, donna, and again it would be interesting, if you agree, you put an EPOS solution in as a colleague.
Speaker 1:
I turn up, you train me how to use it, I press the buttons, I give you the change for your cash, I process your card payment, maybe not check anymore, but it's fairly binary and it doesn't change when I work. It's not particularly emotional. I might like it or not like it, but it's. It's the way it is and we know the answer of how we're going to do things when we set up the solution and buy it wfmM, on the other hand, we pump a load of data in sales transactions, labor standards, workload, whatever. We spend a lot of time doing that upfront and we're not quite sure the answer it's going to tell us and the answer will mean something different for each colleague and emotionally might mean you need me to change my working days at worst, hours within day at best. So there's a an individual consequence of that solution which, from the till system, it's binary, press one, two and three and you equal, kind of whatever you get. But we don't quite know and the answer could change week on week, couldn't it?
Speaker 2:
Oh, absolutely, it could change week on week and I think that's a really key point, simon, the impact of a WFM solution versus the impact of a POS solution is it impacts me as an individual and potentially my working hours, my working days, potentially my working hours, my working days, and therefore there's a change challenge. So me as an individual will go through a change curve for some of that. Some people that may be flatter than others. It depends on the impact and I think it's being aware of that and understanding the benefits. There's also a little bit of. I've always done what I've always done and therefore I know, I know what hours I need and I know where I need people and I don't need a system to tell me that yeah and there's a bit of a reluctance sometimes to change um.
Speaker 2:
So it's really key that we demonstrate the benefits not only to the business but to the manager. So it's. It allows me to be more hands-off as a manager because it's creating those schedules for me where I need them. But it also means I need to be a bit more hands-on with my people and making sure that they're engaged and happy and understand why the schedule is scheduling how it is.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, totally agree. And I think when we talked about setting up this episode we kind of said the solution is the enabler, not the answer. Where other tech projects, the solution is the answer. So in our EPOS example, the new EPOS system is the answer because it's binary, it gives you the output, it tells you the change, whatever.
Speaker 2:
I agree, I think that's really key and I think it is an enabler. I mean, I think I said to you before I had a comment at some point in my career where one of the store managers said to me but that UWFM system makes me overspend and I was like how does it do that?
Speaker 1:
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:
And it is a system, but we do have to interact with it and like any system.
Speaker 1:
Good data in good data out.
Speaker 2:
Absolutely, Absolutely. It's really important that the data that we have feeding in is clear, is accurate and is feeding into the right place.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, um accurate and is feeding into the right place yeah, so if we take that to, the next level. If I'm in a global organization, that must just be on a whole different scale absolutely, I think.
Speaker 2:
I think it's. It's about how we, how mature those, those global businesses, are as well. So is the data. For example, as we're talking about data, is it the same across all businesses in each country? Is it different? Is it coming from different places? Is it the same, particularly when you're trying to align a global business? Many businesses are trying to make sure that we're driving consistency globally, but there are some challenges across those countries with how and what data is being provided and there's.
Speaker 1:
There's also the cultural bit, isn't there? There's the the payroll bit. So I know I've done some work before in um Nordics and Sweden and Norway have for them what seems simple but based on the UK being very, very simple. You know, really challenging rules around paternity, maternity leave, based on the number of children you have and and all sorts of things. So it's not as simple as just throwing a blanket over it all and saying off you go no, you can't.
Speaker 2:
I mean, as you pointed out, the payrolls in different European countries, as an example, are just different country by country, by country. So you can get some of that consistency and I do think that, globally, we should be aiming for I'm going to use the 80-20 rule, but it could be 70-30, it could be 75-25. But we should be aiming, as global businesses, to drive as much consistency as we can. However, acknowledge and accept that there is some differences between countries that we need to allow for because of the pay rules and the way that we operate.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, there's a massive benefit just in enforcing the rules, isn't there? Because I think back to my time running diy stores and alike and it was I'll share my age now. It was kind of in the infancy of workforce management, and then I suspect we broke the rules all the time in terms of time off between shifts, in terms of underpaying people, overpaying people and just having that basic structure in place that says this is the legal rule. The system will not let you break it or will tell you if you're about to break it. So it's an informed choice, has a massive benefit, especially, I think, in Europe, where the fines are much more significant than maybe the UK.
Speaker 2:
Yes, I agree. I think that is one of the key benefits of a workforce management solution, isn't it? It's about enabling and helping businesses to be compliant to the local regulations in each country by highlighting that to you, allow you to do it, because potentially you could override it or ignore it. I suppose, yeah, but it very much guides and it delivers that compliance, those compliance requirements, within the solution that you've got yeah, and if I'm choosing to override it, I've had to probably confirm that I knowingly am breaking a rule.
Speaker 1:
So it's me as an individual that then become liable, not the organization yeah, and it's important, right?
Speaker 2:
it's important that we are compliant when we're managing people's contracts and we're managing their work-life balance and how they're working within their business, the times they're working, et cetera. It's key.
Speaker 1:
Absolutely, and that brings us on to the next point then. So impact on the end users and I think we've kind of referenced good data in, good data out. We've talked about potentially changing the way people work when people work Not necessarily the how at this point, but there's benefits at all levels in the organization isn't there, but those let's stick to our retail example store managers and colleagues are the ones that feel that more than anybody oh yeah, absolutely, and I think it's a really good opportunity.
Speaker 2:
As we started the conversation, simon, talking about end-to-end change management and engagement, it's a really good opportunity for businesses to review their processes, their procedures as they implement. A workforce management solution of a store manager look like what are the activities we'd expect them to do daily, weekly, periodically, monthly, to manage the system and our people? Simply so that we are not spending lots of time building in what was the old word generally, maybe an Excel spreadsheet for, for example, and updating it. But actually, how do we do our what? Sorry, not how do we? What are our new day-to-day activities that we need to be doing to keep life as simple as it can be, so that then, that allows me, as a store manager, as a department manager, to have more time to actually serve customers yeah, yeah, I agree.
Speaker 1:
And two things, and again, I don't know if you see these as common themes. I I see them all the time, especially you talked about what managers do when we're doing our kind of role studies on leadership. One is people saying I take it, this system takes a long time to administer. I'm always, I'm always fighting the system, to which my point I'll be back to give me an example. Uh well, um, john works. The system always puts john in on tuesday, but I always have to change him to a wednesday and I come back to.
Speaker 1:
Well, you need to change your underlying data and the system will do that for you every week. So, good data in, good data out. And number two, number two is business cases, or businesses that have this panacea of we're going to put this system in and we're going to save a load of time scheduling. And my point will always be but you don't spend any time scheduling now because you're on an Excel spreadsheet and actually all you're really doing is managing holidays and vacancies. So you're going to probably invest more time scheduling because you've got shapes of trade that you're going to align people to. You're going to, you know, work out all the inaccuracies in data over time, but don't kid yourself, this is a big time saver for managers.
Speaker 2:
I agree, it's just doing something different and doing it in a different way, and that is what we need to embed that change and we need to engage around that change because if we don't make that change, businesses have spent a considerable amount of money implementing a workforce management solution that I as a store manager and I've seen this time and time again, simon and I'm sorry you, but I've go back and fill in an excel spreadsheet and then enter that into the workforce management solution. So they're kind of double handling then yeah.
Speaker 1:
So I've increased the work I've actually, and for me, if it was, if I was running a big business, I'd rather say get that in the wfm solution, even if it's not matched to your labor profile, so even if it's not matched to your customer demand or delivery demand. But at least we know what reality is and we can work towards it. So when people come and go, you can do it. Doing it twice is madness, but, as you say, making a significant investment to then it almost become just a record of managing time in and out again feels madness. But for me it always comes back to the bigger point of this conversation.
Speaker 1:
People have missed the point of why you've done it and the change it's such a key part of the journey so I know you've done a blog recently and we'll put it in the show notes, uh which has got kind of some some amazing tips on, but kind of give us your top three or four tips for people who are either starting the journey, um, in the journey, have maybe come out the other side of the journey, because I think this is something that should always like the whole productivity stuff and and everything should always be in review. It's not just something you pick up, you roll out and put down, because I think that's that's when all the potential pitfalls come. So what are your kind of top tips you've got to share?
Speaker 2:
I think we've already touched on data, simon, so I won't focus on that one, but obviously, keep good data in.
Speaker 2:
You'll get good information out the other end.
Speaker 2:
But I think when you're starting a project, it's really important that you have the three key things for me that you have a very clear objective as to what you are looking to achieve as a business, both from a return on investment and improvement in process.
Speaker 2:
As an example, it's really important that you have stakeholder buy-in and those stakeholders are aligned and in place. And one of the other key parts is that you have the right people within your program and project team and your internal team that are going to own this solution involved at the start of the project so that you've got the time and the investment in the program so that you can stick to your timeline. You can um complete all of the activities that need to be completed, as well as throughout the project. For those that are going to be running the system can do the upskilling that's required. I think if you don't take the opportunity to do the process alignment, you've almost missed a an opportunity, for want of a better word. So it's a great opportunity to review processes and procedures rather than how do we customise a workforce management solution, which I would never advocate, to match what we currently do? And then, finally, for me it's about the change management strategy. Make sure that's clear, make sure that's being owned, and how are we measuring the delivery of that change management strategy and what the impacts are and what challenges, what engagements, issues we're having with it so that we can land a solution, effectively have the change and engagement landed within that and people bought into what we're trying to achieve as a business and the benefits that it delivers yeah, and I'd agree wholeheartedly and
Speaker 1:
I think I've learned as well, people should over deliver and under promise. I think what we see is you know, here you kind of um laugh there people over promise what this solution is going to, these solutions are going to do and what problems are going to solve, and then and then potentially under deliver or disappoint against it. There's so much richness in the benefits um loads to go at.
Speaker 2:
But yeah, I'm sure you see that as well yeah, absolutely, and I think that comes back to what are the clear objectives. What is it that I, as a business, I'm trying to deliver and change because you are trying to change something. That's why you're implementing the solution within my business as part of this implementation brilliant.
Speaker 1:
So if people want to continue the conversation, Donna, where's the best place for them to find you?
Speaker 2:
So I'm on LinkedIn, obviously, but feel free to email me on donnastevenson at simsandassociatescom.
Speaker 1:
Perfect, we'll pause there. We're going to be back with another two episodes with some of your colleagues at Sims, so appreciate your time, donna Always great to catch up and share stories, and we'll speak soon thanks, simon, been good to chat.
